Claudia Simpson Featured on the People In Legal Podcast: A Deep Dive into Legal Tech, Governance, and Responsible AI

Episode Transcript

0:00 Don’t jump in head first. Assess where you’re at and where this technology is
0:05 in the context of your business. And don’t just involve those people who are like, “Yes, this is going to be the
0:12 greatest thing ever. It’s going to solve all of our problems.” You need to also involve the people who are going to step back and say, “Hey, this is a risk.”
0:18 Then, you know, you look into what is best practice and how can we be compliant? How can we protect the
0:25 data that we are handling?
0:32 Welcome to the People and Legal Podcast. This is the Law and Beyond show and I am your host Chantel McNaught and we’re
0:39 exploring everything there is in the legal universe that is law, legal tech
0:45 and compliance, education and academia. And in this special careers episode
0:52 brought to you by NovGlobal, we will be discussing all things legal tech career with our special guest Claudia
0:59 Simpson. Claudia Simpson joined Law In Order in 2018 as a litigation support
1:05 clerk and quickly progressed through roles in legal services operations before moving into business analysis.
1:13 Now in her eighth year, she serves as a senior data governance and business analyst leading customer data and
1:19 privacy initiatives, software development programs, and change management, all while contributing to
1:26 the ISO 20001 compliance as part of the information security team. Claudia
1:32 credits her growth to saying yes to opportunities and to the mentors who
1:38 supported her journey. With a sociology background, she brings a people-first approach to technology and governance,
1:44 ensuring ethical, compliant, and practical solutions that empower teams and drive innovation. So, you can see
1:51 why I’m very excited to have Claudia on the show today. Without the support of our podcast partners like NovGlobal,
1:58 we can’t bring you these episodes and all editorial decisions remain with me
2:03 and the people in legal editorial team. Welcome to the show, Claudia. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
2:10 Ah, it’s such a pleasure. Wow. You have grown quite a lot in your legal tech
2:17 career in Law In Order since starting so young. What has kept you
2:23 engaged with across so many aspects of the business and like where are you now?
2:29 But also briefly, how did you get there? Yeah. well, as you said, I am in my
2:36 eighth year at Law In Order. now a senior data governance and business analyst. A bit of a tongue tire of a
2:42 title. so yes, I’m responsible for customer data and privacy and our software development program and of
2:48 course member of the information security team as well. Like you said, started in 2018 as a litigation support
2:54 clerk on the operations floor in Sydney. So think print, copy, scan, all of those good things. I then moved into a
3:00 management role as a team leader on the operations floor. So that was a high-pressure environment, very time
3:05 sensitive delivery of client materials. Then I took on an additional role as a training coordinator as well. So I think
3:12 I credit that to the start of my change management kind of experience which definitely led into my BA role.
3:18 Interestingly the turning point for me – I undertook an internal
3:24 consulting internship so was that was successful. I was offered a role as
3:29 an eDiscovery consultant. then curveball same day I was offered
3:36 the business analyst role as well. So I took on the BA role which was the
3:43 right decision for me. I was working with all service lines and departments. So it kind of fed my passion for
3:50 helping people. This was the right fit and kind of kept me engaged across the business. Then in 2023 I was
3:59 offered the data governance privacy officer role as well. In that
4:05 space I was isolating areas for improvement of our data governance practices, initiating
4:10 change and supporting and that was all supported by my extensive knowledge from operations and of course my BA role.
4:17 knowing people and practices means you can make informed and more impactful differences. What a career
4:25 trajectory, you know, and and it sounds like you’re really well supported. I did have a question though because well
4:31 while I’m fortunate enough to be married to a business analyst of 15 years and
4:36 that’s not necessarily the case for a lot of our listeners. So are you able to I guess break down some of the basics
4:43 of what a BA does and what you’ve learned very briefly around BA
4:49 in your roles. Definitely. There are quite a few different types of BAs really. in
4:56 my role, I’m predominantly responsible for our software development program. So what that means is meeting with
5:03 stakeholders and users to understand their requirements often just in
5:08 plain language and really drilling down into their needs. I then go back to my team, my wonderful developers and I
5:16 translate my, those you know requirements into technical actionable
5:21 stories that we can innovate and build off. Aside from that I’m also responsible for change management across
5:27 the business. That doesn’t necessarily mean with our own products or building our own products. It may What Does a Business Analyst Do?
5:34 be bringing in you know software from external vendors and many many many
5:40 different initiatives. So in my role at least as a BA I obviously
5:46 have the software development side but I tend to be kind of a catch all when people need that help to change from
5:53 from one practice to another and I do love that part of my role. It is such
5:58 a people-oriented set of skills, isn’t it? And you
6:04 know, I think this really flows onto the next couple of questions that I have for you around you know, your
6:12 opportunities to develop and how you’ve ended up being championed
6:19 and you now also champion others. You mentioned how Law In Order is an
6:25 organisation for people who are willing to take on opportunities and you know
6:31 because you say yes and then you get those mentorship and support. What does
6:36 that mean for you and how has that shaped your career in your experience?
6:43 Yeah, absolutely. well as you can see from my career trajectory Law In Order is definitely a place that
6:50 offers opportunity to those who are willing to say yes. My career has been defined by that. This environment’s
6:56 allowed me I think a foot in the door in an otherwise kind of inaccessible industry. If you’re not a lawyer, how
7:02 are you working in the legal space? As a young woman, I’m proud to have found myself in a position to champion
7:08 positive outcomes for my colleagues, our clients, but also by extension our communities. I think the core part of
7:14 how Law In Order has supported me. Aside from this, Law In Order has consistently supported me through
7:19 continuous learning. I actually worked and studied full-time at the University of Sydney undertaking an arts
7:24 degree in sociology and English. Law In Order supported me through this, giving me the flexibility to do both. and
7:31 there’s many stories like this across Yes, it was it was intense, but it was so worth it. and there’s a lot of
7:38 stories like this across the business. Some of our most core individuals in the organisation started right where I
7:43 did and like me they have a really deep understanding not only of our organisation but the legal services
7:49 industry as well. So I think all of these things together make not only Law In Order stronger but better
7:56 positioned to help our clients and again by extension our communities. That’s something I don’t ever want to
8:02 forget. The work is vital and important. Yeah. And I’m so like nerdily
8:10 excited to talk more about the that sociology point because as we were
8:17 talking about off air as well like that’s I touch on sociology in my own
8:24 PhD thesis. So, it’s really nice to have somebody who understands, but also
8:31 you understand on a different level because you’re serving the legal universe. You’re serving the lawyers in
8:37 what you do. Even if that is a little bit indirect in the sense of well, the position that that you have now is
8:45 really supporting the teams that then go on to support the lawyers. But you
8:51 clearly have like that fundamental understanding about the why and how Simon Sinek talks about it’s about the
8:58 why. Exactly. And and how like Yeah. without trying to
9:04 bandy that that academic word of sociology. It’s really like this the science of understanding people and how
9:13 people interact with each other, how we do things and accomplish things, what makes us human. I’m currently reading
9:21 A, I like to read really dense things I’ve realised about myself, and um
9:27 so just bringing it up here because I keep forgetting what it’s actually called. It’s by Ray Dio. the Sociology & People-First Approach to Tech
9:33 principles for dealing with the changing world order. Mmmm interesting. It is really interesting because he’s
9:39 he’s like a markets guy. So like his whole he builds wealth by you know trading on
9:47 like big shifts in the markets and you wouldn’t think that that would be too closely linked to sociology
9:53 but then then he cites a whole bunch of sociology work. I would say inherently linked
9:59 definitely. Mhm. Well, yeah, and that’s basically what his thesis in in this
10:04 book is that you know, him and his team looked at the data on a lot of
10:10 the changing trends in empires and civilisations and how they’ve
10:16 changed. And I want to before I digress too far down that rabbit hole as
10:23 I have a tendency of doing, but bringing it back to that whole point of understanding who we are can help us
10:32 help each other absolutely in what drives us forward because what makes us uniquely human is
10:38 our ability to innovate and change our environment, make things better for the next generation. you know, planting
10:44 a tree not because we get to enjoy it in our lifetimes, but because our generations after us do.
10:52 So, yeah, that’s gotten existential very quickly,
10:57 as sociology tends to do, for sure. And it like I honestly, it’s just so
11:02 impressive. Like I didn’t do my bachelor working full-time but you completed yours while also working
11:11 full-time. Like that that one is incredible, but also how has that social
11:19 understanding of the theories of sociology and your innate curiosity
11:24 influence how you’ve approached this kind of intersection of technology,
11:31 law, obviously some corporate governance in there as well and society or has
11:36 it been the other way around? Has you know your role at Law In Order like had had that initially enlivened no
11:43 you must, you must complete this study tell me more. Very interesting question I think I
11:50 do get asked well I I did when I was undertaking my degree you know people
11:55 would wonder how can an arts degree contribute to legal services and tech or basically anything outside the realm of
12:03 kind of arts and sociology I would say my social understanding and curiosity is what drives me and that comes
12:09 predominantly from my degree at work. Now I’m driven by a need to build in
12:15 ethics and regulatory compliance with functionality and efficiency. Some people look at that and say Claudia
12:20 you’re a bit boring but it is a passion. It’s true. Importantly my curiosity is what kind of keeps me engaged and pushes
12:27 me to try and understand the bigger picture when it comes to technology, law and society. Obviously within the
12:32 realm of our organisation but also kind of looking outside of that at the bigger picture and trying to understand
12:39 where are we headed and are we asking the right questions and are we making
12:45 ethical choices. I’m also in a great position within my organisation to
12:51 play a part in the intersection of social responsibility and the legal services space. We have our CSR
12:58 collective so my work in this group spans initiatives like the United Nations Global Compact, sustainability,
13:04 anti-slavery, um, and even things like lifeblood donations. We, you know, have a great team that is supporting all of
13:09 those initiatives internally. Um, and I think beyond this, my role requires me to speak to just about every single
13:15 person in the business. Um, those onshore and offshore, our clients.
13:20 Having a people first approach means actively listening and acknowledging individual experience um, and expertise.
13:27 Ultimately working with these people in this way improves outcomes across the business because there’s an honest
13:33 and open dialogue which is founded in respect, and I think a lot of that
13:38 mindset comes from my time studying sociology and that kind of innate
13:45 interest and curiosity that’s driving me. I think you absolutely nailed that question of you know chicken and egg
13:53 that I lobbed at you. So and I don’t think that too many people even
13:59 know in themselves about what drives them and I think it’s a real gift to
14:05 have that sort of level of introspection so then you can continue to go
14:10 forward. On another note though because I don’t think compliance and governance
14:16 is boring. I think it’s it can be quite sexy. Yes.
14:22 It’s true. It’s true. And it and it is because exactly what you said like it touches on everything that you do. So
14:28 it’s like if you find that like you automatically want to go when you hear 14:36 compliance and oh when you hear governance like I was talking to a a a gentleman um
14:44 he’s done a PhD in governance and he said this really interesting thing and I would like to present this to you
14:52 as part of this conversation. He said you cannot comply your way to
14:57 performance and do you so I think this is kind of leading up to a really the really big
15:05 question that I have for you around ethics, sociology
15:12 like you know how those things encourage us to ask should we rather
15:18 than just can we and how that mindset especially now in the era of AI
15:24 where somehow everybody is going like does it have well, does anybody actually ask does it
15:31 have AI in it or is it like more of everything’s just being put like AI is
15:36 in it now? So it’s like you buy a bag of peas and you see on the label
15:43 now with AI was a meme I saw online and I’m like
15:48 I’m going to carry that with me to everything I do. But like what informs
15:54 that kind of thinking and approach? And now that I’ve like lobbed a whole bunch
16:00 of thoughts to you, you know, your notes probably going to be that helpful.
16:06 No, I have thoughts in return. Don’t worry. Unfiltered. Let’s go. Give me your thoughts.
16:12 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you touched on a really important question. Um, you know, asking should we, not just
16:19 can we? Of course we can. Of course the tools are there and with the
16:25 right people it’s not overly hard to implement these initiatives particularly when it comes to AI. And
16:32 I think it’s the same with a lot of emerging technology.
16:37 We can all acknowledge that AI has its space in legal tech or just tech in general. you know whether it be
16:44 automating workflows and improving outcomes of discovery, transcription, all of that. The possibilities are
16:51 literally endless. That being said and this I think comes a lot from my
16:56 work in our information security team working with our incredible IT department. And of course you know
17:03 my development side and then of course the governance side. Guardrails are required absolutely. Um,
17:09 for example, Law In Order, we take information security incredibly seriously, obviously ongoing um,
17:15 compliance and certification under ISO 27001, which gives us the tools necessary to
17:20 meet our obligations to our clients and of course our staff. We don’t do this just for the sake of it or just to be
17:28 um, seen as a um, trustworthy partner. We do it because we do it AI, Ethics, and Guardrails
17:34 because we want to be a responsible caretaker of our client data, our staff’s data, all of it. And we
17:40 genuinely care about mitigating risk. Do you think though that have like
17:45 having the guidelines like ISO can be really helpful, this is that whole compliance and and um
17:53 performance thing. Do you think though that having those sorts of boundary lines can actually aid
17:59 innovation because it’s like it’s basically permission to be like hey
18:04 rather than having here’s this massive blank canvas where you do have to go
18:11 should we like we can but should we no I completely agree I mean something
18:17 we’re looking at internally you know we have a we’re actively working on a strategy internally for AI and that kind
18:24 of innovation working with an excellent team of experts across the business and you know we’re looking
18:29 at things like you know ISO 42001 AI systems and you know whether it be ISO
18:36 27001 ISO 40,000 420,0001 you’re not following it blindly you
18:41 are still looking at it within the context of your business and in fact these certifications ask you to do that and so you know of course like the
18:48 regulatory landscape is always evolving in parallel with this technology particularly with AI and particularly
18:53 within in the legal services space. If there was any advice I could give to
18:59 anyone would be to don’t jump in headfirst. Assess where you’re at and where
19:05 this technology is in the context of your business. And don’t just involve those people who are like, “Yes, this is
19:12 going to be the greatest thing ever. It’s going to solve all of our problems.” You need to also involve the people who are going to step back and
19:18 say, “Hey, this is a risk.” because they’re the ones that are going to call upon those guardrails and you know you
19:23 look into what is best practice and how can we be compliant how can we protect the data that we are
19:31 handling. So these guardrails are important set them before joining the
19:37 race so to say it’s something that we have done internally and it’s not something that’s just one and done as
19:43 I said the technology is ever evolving so is the you know regulations we
19:49 need continuous improvement and continuous learning
19:58 It is something that governments really do need to consider implementing regulation around this
20:04 because regulation can encourage that innovation. It can it can help those
20:10 teams know that it is okay to keep pushing forward with the production, the
20:18 productivity. Absolutely. Without having to feel as if oh
20:23 governance team or compliance team or you know legal are slowing us down and which often can can be what it feels
20:30 like and then that creates a lot of like tech tension and friction within team. Absolutely. Yeah. Iit has to go hand
20:37 in hand and that’s what I I’m saying about you know you need to have these blended teams. You need to have those who are all for and not necessarily you
20:44 know people who I don’t I don’t know of anyone who is all against but you need to have I guess maybe the conscientious
20:50 objectors or those who are going to step up and say hey let’s put the brakes on this a little bit and let’s really
20:57 knuckle down into what this means for us. Yeah. And I really read it as it’s
21:02 not so much where it’s you know I’ll hold it’s more of like that engineering
21:07 term of planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance.
21:13 Yes. Yeah. Truly truly absolutey, I think that might be the motto of my entire
21:18 career really. So it’s like planning and prep. Yeah. But then you perform and
21:28 without it like this this is not going to be a snoozefest. This isn’t a snoozefest. Like I think this is a
21:33 fantastic conversation and on that note though like this whole governance piece can be really daunting
21:40 for law firms and it seems though from the sounds of things Law In Order has it all covered. You know you’re
21:45 demystifying it for yourselves and it’s something that you’re obviously really heavily involved in. How do you think
21:52 that we can make governance feel more like a natural part of this
21:58 innovation piece? Like, you know, it’s clearly seen as a bit of a
22:04 hurdle at the moment, but I don’t think it has to be. No, it doesn’t. Not at all. I mean, at
22:11 least to me, governance is about how can we achieve our goals or support those
22:16 who are undertaking the work? How can we build and maintain trust? And of course manage our assets as well. I guess my
22:24 advice at the core of it is maybe it’s been a theme actually through this whole conversation is don’t make it an
22:30 afterthought. You know build it into operational processes and workflows
22:35 Obviously, policy and compliance software and organisational values and
22:40 of course training. And this isn’t just across those who may have governance in their title or chief this or
22:48 you know head of that. It has to come from every layer and everyone has to
22:53 understand why it’s important. And I think that’s a strength that we have at Law In Order. Everyone, whether
23:00 you’re a litigation support clerk on any one of our operation floors, whether you’re in our eHearings team, our
23:05 eDiscovery team, everyone understands why we again have these guardrails, have
23:11 these rules, and have, you know, me popping up every week being like, “Hello, let’s do a compliance check for
23:17 this.” They understand why that’s important,
23:23 not just for themselves and their workflows, but also our clients as well. So it’s multi-layered.
23:30 Aside from that, you have to have those that are responsible. You need to assign these tasks to someone who
23:37 hopefully is curious and looks at it in maybe the way I do in terms of it’s not boring. It can be exciting. It can be a
23:43 process of discovery and make sure that those people are abreast with of course best practice and changing
23:49 regulation. There’s been a lot changing in the privacy space over the last couple of years. There is always
23:55 something new to learn. But most importantly I think from my perspective is it has to come from the
24:02 top. I think that’s with any initiative. again it’s something that the international standards ask for. You
24:09 need to have you know management buy in, leadership buy in. Leadership needs
24:15 to meet the needs of those undertaking governance and give them the tools to succeed. That doesn’t necessarily mean
24:22 getting this system or you know that compliance platform. It can simply mean
24:28 giving them the time to move through often really complex environments, particularly if you’re just building in governance. you know and also with Governance as an Enabler & AML Compliance
24:35 the knowledge that they’re going to be met with acceptance from all those that they cross paths with. I think it’s the
24:40 important part. Wow. Well, I that is incredibly
24:45 practical advice of you know start starting from the top but understanding the why or what I was thinking when you
24:52 were saying that was the context of tranche two AML coming in for the
24:58 transactional lawyers that so so many that I’ve spoken to in Australia so far
25:04 are a little bit lost even though AUSTRAC are highly encouraging and they’ve
25:11 Got some really great training, free training people. Yeah. And you know, you don’t just like you
25:17 know, it’s not just the vendors that are doing free training. It’s AUSTRAC themselves and they’re very, you know, very open
25:23 and transparent about the sorts of the reason why like why does that
25:29 information and those things need to come into place. And it’s not about turning a lawyer into a investigative
25:37 you know police person you know like it’s it is actually about can be about
25:43 you know protecting your own customer base and your other clients. Absolutely. From you know nefarious actors and
25:50 also like our community safe because we don’t want weapons to be proliferated and
25:56 in order to proliferate weapons they kind of need money. Exactly. Yeah. And then and then all the way
26:02 through like you know as when you were saying about everybody needs to understand why it’s important. It’s
26:09 it’s you know like that whole cyber security training like I would I’d love
26:14 I love doing cyber security training because it’s always like oh there’s always something new. It’s like oh I
26:20 didn’t know they can use QR codes for that. Of course, definitely. And I mean, you know, if if if having a almost selfish
26:28 note to it kind of helps people, you know, these things that you learn and that that you’re doing, you know,
26:33 sitting at your desk at your corporate job help you in your personal life as well and can help the people around you,
26:38 your family, your friends, all of it. So, but yeah, I think you know going
26:46 back to you saying that the advice is practical. It has to be like you said, it can be mysterious. it can be um
26:52 difficult to navigate and understand what we need to do. obviously me taking on the data governance role in
26:58 2023, I’ve only been doing this for a couple of years and the learning curve was steep, you know. thankfully
27:05 there’s we have a great you know team internally that supports you know our chief digital officer
27:12 Murali, our head of IT John Ozturk. they are you know also members of the
27:18 information security team and have not only kind of paved the way in terms of my growth and learning but are
27:25 continuously supportive of these initiatives and having our chief digital officer and our head of IT
27:30 across the organisation being such supporters of these initiatives and being like yes we are going to make the
27:36 time for this that’s what I mean about you know the leadership they also have to genuinely care.
27:42 I think we we’ve come to that that part where I shuffle some cards really terribly
27:47 and I make guests very nervous because this is this is the conversation
27:53 topic no one prepares for but they’re always so delightful
27:59 and I’m sure it’ll be fun. Oh, I’m really excited. This conversation we can we can talk for
28:04 hours and it’s very fun. So, oh,
28:12 if you had to be in isolation for 2 weeks with just three other people.
28:18 Wow. Who would you choose and why? Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, I’m assuming
28:26 living or dead. That tends to be the general kind of. Oh, you can you can apply your own rules in
28:31 your own rules. Okay. Oh my goodness. All right. Gosh, you know, I was asked this actually not that long ago,
28:38 which is quite strange. So let me have a think. Okay. Well, I mean,
28:45 one thing about me, so we’ve spoken a lot about the sociology side of my degree. That was one of my majors. My
28:51 other was English literature. which I think, you know, feeding back
28:56 into that curiosity thing. That’s a huge part for me. So I think honestly my answers are going to be a little bit
29:02 nerdy, which maybe tracks as well considering we’re talking about software development and you know data governance
29:08 compliance all of that but I think three people in isolation probably I would say one
29:17 would be Brandon Sanderson, he’s an author a prolific author the
29:25 the way of kings and misborn and things like that again very nerdy um
29:31 perhaps another would be probably my husband cuz he’s just my
29:38 best friend. He’s very funny. I think he would and you could cope with being in isolation with him for two weeks.
29:45 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And then maybe one more. Oh gosh, this is a very difficult question. Um
29:51 one more. Maybe let’s go another author. Their name is V E Schwab. Their work
29:58 is excellent. Almost won book of the year. Dimmick’s book of the year this year. It was the finalist. and yeah,
30:05 their work changed my life this year. So, I think that’s probably my maybe strange top three list for Isolation
30:12 Buddies. Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, well, we’d have to tap into your latent
30:18 literature talent there and maybe, you know, curate a little bit of a book list
30:24 for more than happy for the yeah, fantasy
30:30 and sci-fi nerds out there. I’m definitely your girl. And and there’s there’s a lot you can learn in fiction and um
30:36 absolutely again I mean ties back in, right? I think how can we not
30:42 literature particularly you know fiction it’s pushing us to understand you
30:48 know the bounds of our reality and a lot of our current technology is coming from the imaginings of people you know 75
30:56 100 years ago so in that way we can definitely be looking into the future. The Isolation Card Question & Book Chat
31:02 This has been the law and beyond show on the people and legal podcast. If you
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31:20 We will see you next
15:54 that kind of thinking and approach? And now that I’ve like lobbed a whole bunch
16:00 of thoughts to you, you know, your notes probably going to be that helpful.
16:06 No, I have thoughts in return. Don’t worry. Unfiltered. Let’s go. Give me your thoughts.
16:12 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you touched on a really important question. Um, you know, asking should we, not just
16:19 can we? Of course we can. Of course the tools are there and with the
16:25 right people it’s not overly hard to implement these initiatives particularly when it comes to AI. And
16:32 I think it’s the same with a lot of emerging technology.
16:37 We can all acknowledge that AI has its space in legal tech or just tech in general. you know whether it be
16:44 automating workflows and improving outcomes of discovery, transcription, all of that. The possibilities are
16:51 literally endless. That being said and this I think comes a lot from my
16:56 work in our information security team working with our incredible IT department. And of course you know
17:03 my development side and then of course the governance side. Guardrails are required absolutely. Um,
17:09 for example, Law In Order, we take information security incredibly seriously, obviously ongoing um,
17:15 compliance and certification under ISO 27001, which gives us the tools necessary to
17:20 meet our obligations to our clients and of course our staff. We don’t do this just for the sake of it or just to be
17:28 um, seen as a um, trustworthy partner. We do it because we do it AI, Ethics, and Guardrails
17:34 because we want to be a responsible caretaker of our client data, our staff’s data, all of it. And we
17:40 genuinely care about mitigating risk. Do you think though that have like
17:45 having the guidelines like ISO can be really helpful, this is that whole compliance and and um
17:53 performance thing. Do you think though that having those sorts of boundary lines can actually aid
17:59 innovation because it’s like it’s basically permission to be like hey
18:04 rather than having here’s this massive blank canvas where you do have to go
18:11 should we like we can but should we no I completely agree I mean something
18:17 we’re looking at internally you know we have a we’re actively working on a strategy internally for AI and that kind
18:24 of innovation working with an excellent team of experts across the business and you know we’re looking
18:29 at things like you know ISO 42001 AI systems and you know whether it be ISO
18:36 27001 ISO 40,000 420,0001 you’re not following it blindly you
18:41 are still looking at it within the context of your business and in fact these certifications ask you to do that and so you know of course like the
18:48 regulatory landscape is always evolving in parallel with this technology particularly with AI and particularly
18:53 within in the legal services space. If there was any advice I could give to
18:59 anyone would be to don’t jump in headfirst. Assess where you’re at and where
19:05 this technology is in the context of your business. And don’t just involve those people who are like, “Yes, this is
19:12 going to be the greatest thing ever. It’s going to solve all of our problems.” You need to also involve the people who are going to step back and
19:18 say, “Hey, this is a risk.” because they’re the ones that are going to call upon those guardrails and you know you
19:23 look into what is best practice and how can we be compliant how can we protect the data that we are
19:31 handling. So these guardrails are important set them before joining the
19:37 race so to say it’s something that we have done internally and it’s not something that’s just one and done as
19:43 I said the technology is ever evolving so is the you know regulations we 19:49
need continuous improvement and continuous learning
19:58 It is something that governments really do need to consider implementing regulation around this
20:04 because regulation can encourage that innovation. It can it can help those
20:10 teams know that it is okay to keep pushing forward with the production, the
20:18 productivity. Absolutely. Without having to feel as if oh
20:23 governance team or compliance team or you know legal are slowing us down and which often can can be what it feels
20:30 like and then that creates a lot of like tech tension and friction within team. Absolutely. Yeah. Iit has to go hand
20:37 in hand and that’s what I I’m saying about you know you need to have these blended teams. You need to have those who are all for and not necessarily you
20:44 know people who I don’t I don’t know of anyone who is all against but you need to have I guess maybe the conscientious
20:50 objectors or those who are going to step up and say hey let’s put the brakes on this a little bit and let’s really
20:57 knuckle down into what this means for us. Yeah. And I really read it as it’s
21:02 not so much where it’s you know I’ll hold it’s more of like that engineering
21:07 term of planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance.
21:13 Yes. Yeah. Truly truly absolutey, I think that might be the motto of my entire
21:18 career really. So it’s like planning and prep. Yeah. But then you perform and
21:28 without it like this this is not going to be a snoozefest. This isn’t a snoozefest. Like I think this is a
21:33 fantastic conversation and on that note though like this whole governance piece can be really daunting
21:40 for law firms and it seems though from the sounds of things Law In Order has it all covered. You know you’re
21:45 demystifying it for yourselves and it’s something that you’re obviously really heavily involved in. How do you think
21:52 that we can make governance feel more like a natural part of this
21:58 innovation piece? Like, you know, it’s clearly seen as a bit of a
22:04 hurdle at the moment, but I don’t think it has to be. No, it doesn’t. Not at all. I mean, at
22:11 least to me, governance is about how can we achieve our goals or support those
22:16 who are undertaking the work? How can we build and maintain trust? And of course manage our assets as well. I guess my
22:24 advice at the core of it is maybe it’s been a theme actually through this whole conversation is don’t make it an
22:30 afterthought. You know build it into operational processes and workflows
22:35 Obviously, policy and compliance software and organisational values and
22:40 of course training. And this isn’t just across those who may have governance in their title or chief this or
22:48 you know head of that. It has to come from every layer and everyone has to
22:53 understand why it’s important. And I think that’s a strength that we have at Law In Order. Everyone, whether
23:00 you’re a litigation support clerk on any one of our operation floors, whether you’re in our eHearings team, our
23:05 eDiscovery team, everyone understands why we again have these guardrails, have
23:11 these rules, and have, you know, me popping up every week being like, “Hello, let’s do a compliance check for
23:17 this.” They understand why that’s important,
23:23 not just for themselves and their workflows, but also our clients as well. So it’s multi-layered.
23:30 Aside from that, you have to have those that are responsible. You need to assign these tasks to someone who
23:37 hopefully is curious and looks at it in maybe the way I do in terms of it’s not boring. It can be exciting. It can be a
23:43 process of discovery and make sure that those people are abreast with of course best practice and changing
23:49 regulation. There’s been a lot changing in the privacy space over the last couple of years. There is always
23:55 something new to learn. But most importantly I think from my perspective is it has to come from the
24:02 top. I think that’s with any initiative. again it’s something that the international standards ask for. You
24:09 need to have you know management buy in, leadership buy in. Leadership needs
24:15 to meet the needs of those undertaking governance and give them the tools to succeed. That doesn’t necessarily mean
24:22 getting this system or you know that compliance platform. It can simply mean
24:28 giving them the time to move through often really complex environments, particularly if you’re just building in governance. you know and also with Governance as an Enabler & AML Compliance
24:35 the knowledge that they’re going to be met with acceptance from all those that they cross paths with. I think it’s the
24:40 important part. Wow. Well, I that is incredibly
24:45 practical advice of you know start starting from the top but understanding the why or what I was thinking when you
24:52 were saying that was the context of tranche two AML coming in for the
24:58 transactional lawyers that so so many that I’ve spoken to in Australia so far
25:04 are a little bit lost even though AUSTRAC are highly encouraging and they’ve
25:11 Got some really great training, free training people. Yeah. And you know, you don’t just like you
25:17 know, it’s not just the vendors that are doing free training. It’s AUSTRAC themselves and they’re very, you know, very open
25:23 and transparent about the sorts of the reason why like why does that
25:29 information and those things need to come into place. And it’s not about turning a lawyer into a investigative
25:37 you know police person you know like it’s it is actually about can be about
25:43 you know protecting your own customer base and your other clients. Absolutely. From you know nefarious actors and
25:50 also like our community safe because we don’t want weapons to be proliferated and
25:56 in order to proliferate weapons they kind of need money. Exactly. Yeah. And then and then all the way
26:02 through like you know as when you were saying about everybody needs to understand why it’s important. It’s
26:09 it’s you know like that whole cyber security training like I would I’d love
26:14 I love doing cyber security training because it’s always like oh there’s always something new. It’s like oh I
26:20 didn’t know they can use QR codes for that. Of course, definitely. And I mean, you know, if if if having a almost selfish
26:28 note to it kind of helps people, you know, these things that you learn and that that you’re doing, you know,
26:33 sitting at your desk at your corporate job help you in your personal life as well and can help the people around you,
26:38 your family, your friends, all of it. So, but yeah, I think you know going
26:46 back to you saying that the advice is practical. It has to be like you said, it can be mysterious. it can be um
26:52 difficult to navigate and understand what we need to do. obviously me taking on the data governance role in
26:58 2023, I’ve only been doing this for a couple of years and the learning curve was steep, you know. thankfully
27:05 there’s we have a great you know team internally that supports you know our chief digital officer
27:12 Murali, our head of IT John Ozturk. they are you know also members of the
27:18 information security team and have not only kind of paved the way in terms of my growth and learning but are
27:25 continuously supportive of these initiatives and having our chief digital officer and our head of IT
27:30 across the organisation being such supporters of these initiatives and being like yes we are going to make the
27:36 time for this that’s what I mean about you know the leadership they also have to genuinely care.
27:42 I think we we’ve come to that that part where I shuffle some cards really terribly
27:47 and I make guests very nervous because this is this is the conversation
27:53 topic no one prepares for but they’re always so delightful
27:59 and I’m sure it’ll be fun. Oh, I’m really excited. This conversation we can we can talk for
28:04 hours and it’s very fun. So, oh,
28:12 if you had to be in isolation for 2 weeks with just three other people.
28:18 Wow. Who would you choose and why? Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, I’m assuming
28:26 living or dead. That tends to be the general kind of. Oh, you can you can apply your own rules in
28:31 your own rules. Okay. Oh my goodness. All right. Gosh, you know, I was asked this actually not that long ago,
28:38 which is quite strange. So let me have a think. Okay. Well, I mean,
28:45 one thing about me, so we’ve spoken a lot about the sociology side of my degree. That was one of my majors. My
28:51 other was English literature. which I think, you know, feeding back
28:56 into that curiosity thing. That’s a huge part for me. So I think honestly my answers are going to be a little bit
29:02 nerdy, which maybe tracks as well considering we’re talking about software development and you know data governance
29:08 compliance all of that but I think three people in isolation probably I would say one
29:17 would be Brandon Sanderson, he’s an author a prolific author the
29:25 the way of kings and misborn and things like that again very nerdy um
29:31 perhaps another would be probably my husband cuz he’s just my
29:38 best friend. He’s very funny. I think he would and you could cope with being in isolation with him for two weeks.
29:45 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And then maybe one more. Oh gosh, this is a very difficult question. Um
29:51 one more. Maybe let’s go another author. Their name is V E Schwab. Their work
29:58 is excellent. Almost won book of the year. Dimmick’s book of the year this year. It was the finalist. and yeah,
30:05 their work changed my life this year. So, I think that’s probably my maybe strange top three list for Isolation
30:12 Buddies. Oh, that’s fantastic. Well, well, we’d have to tap into your latent
30:18 literature talent there and maybe, you know, curate a little bit of a book list
30:24 for more than happy for the yeah, fantasy
30:30 and sci-fi nerds out there. I’m definitely your girl. And and there’s there’s a lot you can learn in fiction and um
30:36 absolutely again I mean ties back in, right? I think how can we not
30:42 literature particularly you know fiction it’s pushing us to understand you
30:48 know the bounds of our reality and a lot of our current technology is coming from the imaginings of people you know 75
30:56 100 years ago so in that way we can definitely be looking into the future. The Isolation Card Question & Book Chat
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